Interview with Dr. Noell Phister, Director of Admissions, Maxwell Behavioral Health Complex, 1961-1974

So what you're saying is that there was a direct line from the experiment and the result we saw after it was in place?

What? What do you mean? I don't understand the question.

What I'm asking is if you saw a connection between the behavior of the animal and the experiments it was subject to?

Yes, most definately.

Can you briefly describe the experiments?

Certainly--the subject was bombarded with RF energy. The brain received huge doses of it.

And what were the results of this experiment?

The subjects were rendered brain dead.

I see. And did researchers conduct experiments on people?

No--apes.

I see.

And they lobotomized the apes, too. They rendered them vegetables, so there's some question as to how much they really suffered. If you're interested in this stuff you can Google Leonard Rubenstein. He was responsible for first developing the radio telemtry techniques.

Can you tell me a little bit about your work at Maxwell?

Certainly. I started there in the early sixties. The Feds hadn't cut Medicaire or Medicaid yet so the beds were full. We just couldn't take another patient. I could be wrong but I think all the wings were open then and the forensic's ward was in operation. It was until '73, '74, when it was moved. But anyway, we all were pretty optimistic because of the new drugs that were reaching the market everyday. Of course they had pretty severe side effects but they did give the patients back some of their lost lucidity. I saw some tragic backward cases get to the point where they could function again.

By "function" what do you mean?

What?

I mean, do you mean wipe their own asses or math?

I mean they they could do basic hygiene and feed themselves and even carry on a conversation It may not sound like much but, prior to the medication, they couldn't do any of that--they were like big infants who needed constant supervision.

Were there any experiments going on when you were at Maxwell?

Well, there was a laboratory in the basement of one of the outbuildings. I was never allowed to go in there. Some kind of research occurred there, though. But none of us knew what it was. I suspect they were looking at the brains of people who had died natural deaths--looking for lesions. Physical evidence of madness. Of course the Germans had already done the same thing at the turn of the century but the myth of deformed cells lives on. Even today researchers are using medical imaging to study the brains of schizophrenics to see how they differ from "normal" brains. Anyway, I don't know who was in charge of that project--it was all very hush hush.

Do you think the researchers were funded by the CIA?

I suspect they were because the staff working lab rotation was predominantly different from the regular hospital staff. In other words, while the lab staff was dedicated, we moved people around as needed, especially attendants, because sometimes a ward would get an especially violent case and need extra help managing him or her.

Was it discouraging working under those conditions? Well, like I said, there were drugs all the time and that gave us hope, yes, but it could get discouraging being around so much suffering. I remember one man murdered all three of his roommates in the middle of the night. It was gruesome and tragic all at once. But there could be real beauty, too, like when some of the more artistically gifted patients would decorate the units by painting on the walls. That was nice. People break into the hospital now. Most of the murals have been defaced.

Don't you find it ironic, doctor, that so many people wanted out of the hospital and now security has to prevent people from breaking in?

Yes, I do suppose there's a certain irony to that.